Transcript
Nico: A lot of folks want to characterize clean energy and climate as an existential threat and a fight. And I'm not going to say that they aren't. But when it comes right down to the work that we're trying to accomplish, it is about establishing long-term, healthful environments for our families and for the generations to come. Few people have been able to tie the work that we're doing in energy and climate to public health like our next guest. Michael Regan is the former Administrator of the EPA and is also a fellow North Carolinian. It's awesome to have you here, Michael, with Jigar and me on this collaboration podcast between Suncast and Energy Empire.
Michael Regan: Thank you all for having me. I'm a big fan of the podcast and you finally invited me.
Nico: You've made it.
Jigar: We didn't have practice reps before we got superstars on, you know?
Growing Up in Eastern North Carolina
Nico: I was going to say, I feel like we've made it now. I mentioned that you grew up here in North Carolina. Your father is a veteran, National Guard, worked in agriculture, helping farmers take care of their land. You grew up like I did, hunting and fishing and really understanding the stewardship of the land. Could you talk about what it was like growing up in that world?
Michael Regan: I had a blast. I grew up hunting and fishing with my father and grandfather. And it wasn't just being out in nature, hunting and fishing. It was being with my father and grandfather, an opportunity to bond and to learn and hear the stories. I really valued that time. It was very precious to me.
Growing up, I did have some respiratory issues that were exacerbated by pollution. When the ozone was really intense, those ozone action days, those were times that I could not be outdoors with my father and grandfather. You can imagine, as a kid wanting to be out there with them and having to sit in the house, that was no fun. So at a very early age, I started to make the connection between public health, personally, and nature and the environment. But I had a wonderful childhood, rural Eastern North Carolina. I really try to always think back to what that meant to me and how I incorporate that into my service.
Jigar: When you think about the origin story of the Clean Air Act and the Clean Water Act — the Cuyahoga River being on fire, 20 million Americans, 10% of the entire U.S. population, participating in the first Earth Day — clearly there were a lot of people who had a similar life story to you around the fact that something was clearly wrong, that we were out of balance, that we were prioritizing economic growth over human health. Talk more about your bad air days and how you made a connection between that experience for you and what was causing it.
Michael Regan: That's a very good question. It took a while for me to really make that connection. But in high school, as the chemistry and biology classes become more intense, you start to ask yourself some questions and you start to understand how these things connect. It's at that point where you really start to talk to others. At that time in life, we didn't really have the vocabulary to understand environmental justice. We just knew what was happening to us as individuals. But then you talk to others in your community and you realize, hey, this is happening more frequently than one might think.
I pursued an environmental science degree at NC A&T State University. It's really there that I started to understand the connectivity between pollution, public health, and the impact to natural resources. It's something that has always been a focus because it's so personal. But you quickly realize it's not just about us as individuals. You start to talk to others and see, quite frankly, that there are some that have it much worse than you do. When I look back and think about some of the surrounding communities where I grew up, there were a lot of communities that were much closer to a hog lagoon than we were, much closer to a coal ash pond than we were, much closer to an industrial operation than we were. At that juncture you start to think, wow, what if I lived that close to some of those operations? I would have been in much worse condition. That's where some of the passion comes from.
The Duke Energy Coal Ash Settlement
Nico: You mentioned coal ash. A lot of folks now rightly know the work that you did at the EPA. Before that, you were running North Carolina's Department of Environmental Quality, won a landmark case against Duke, 80 million tons of coal ash as a judgment. That alone must have felt very vindicating and honorable in the work. The amount of work that you did really changed the way chemical companies and utilities think about how they have to interact with communities. It's transformative, not just for the state of North Carolina, but other states that are watching and learning from it. Where did that confidence come from to attack this kind of a social justice issue?
Michael Regan: I have to tell you, while I always had a personal intrinsic motivation, the day I was being sworn in as Secretary of the Department of Environmental Quality, I bumped into a former governor, Jim Hunt, who told me that if I really wanted to know the state, I needed to visit all 100 counties. We did 90 counties, and then COVID hit. But during that tour, visiting those 90 counties, when you sit down in the living room with the mother whose child has asthma that's exacerbated by a cement kiln, or when you're talking to grandparents whose water wells have been contaminated by coal ash, if you care, it's really hard to look away.
Spending time in the communities with people in their living rooms, having those one-on-one, personal conversations, led me to believe that I had to do everything I could to uphold the mission of the agency, which is to protect public health. When most people think about EPA, they think about the environment. When I think about EPA, it's really a public health agency first. Staying connected in that way really incentivized me to push as hard as possible.
Working with the former Attorney General, who is now Governor of North Carolina, Josh Stein, and the Department of Justice, we pursued the largest coal ash settlement in United States history. I think Duke Energy understood that they needed to put that chapter behind them so that we all could collectively focus on a clean energy future, and they could not focus on that future with that dark cloud hanging over them. We needed to rectify the significant issues that they caused in so many communities all across North Carolina.
EPA as a Public Health Agency
Jigar: I continue to struggle with the fact that the EPA really was created around, as you suggested, all of these communities were in some ways forced to live next to a lot of this pollution. There was a responsibility to find a balance. When communities tested their own water, did something to prove that there was maybe some harm there, there was a responsive EPA to actually help them through that process. There has been a feeling on behalf of many of these communities, and it bubbled up a lot in the wake of George Floyd's death, going into the 2020 election, that EPA was really focused on shutting down coal plants, but not necessarily focused on serving those communities. I'm wondering whether you heard the same thing from those communities, and whether, while you were Administrator, they felt more heard, that the processes felt more transparent. What is the relationship now between those communities and EPA?
Michael Regan: Well, I learned a ton from Governor Hunt's suggestion. When I became EPA Administrator, within a couple of months, we launched a Journey to Justice tour. It started with Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas. But by the time we finished with the administration, we had toured the entire country, including Puerto Rico and Alaska.
It reshaped my agenda. Of course, the President had an agenda. But spending time in those communities — whether you're in McDowell County, West Virginia, or Lowndes County, Alabama — when you see straight piping out the side of a house into the creek where people are getting their water, when you understand the number of petrochemical facilities that are lined up against communities in Louisiana, that's where you start to really focus the agency's mission. We're supposed to provide equal protection under the law for everyone, irrespective of political affiliation, how much money they have in their pocket, or the color of their skin.
The folks in Alaska, in Puerto Rico, in the South, in the Southwest really helped me understand that you have to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. You can't solely focus on coal plants. You have to focus on all pollution sources, and you have to prioritize the communities that are most vulnerable. I believe that's what we did. Not only do I believe it, we received billions of dollars from Congress to pursue these actions.
To answer your question directly, over the four-year period I was EPA Administrator, we developed relationships with communities that had never existed before. We worked very hard to earn their trust. Right now, it's a significant disappointment that they are not having the same seat at the table that we gave them.
How Enforcement Shaped Regulation
Nico: Administrator, I share that sense of disappointment, and I'm sure we can dig in a little deeper on what you're seeing now from the sidelines. Before we go there, I appreciate you connecting the work that you did visiting all the counties to the Journey to Justice. I'd like a little more understanding of how that showed up in the regulations that you wrote. How did it affect the work more than the dollars that were flowing in?
Michael Regan: I can tell you, the first place it showed up was in enforcement. We were not taking action in these communities from an enforcement standpoint like we should. The data and the record from the enforcement actions further substantiated the direction we needed to go in many regulations to ensure that everyone was properly protected. There were some flaws in our regulations that left certain data sets out or certain people behind.
As we pursued regulations for certain chemicals, as we looked at the emissions coming from petrochemical facilities, as we looked at our natural gas facilities, our coal facilities, we were able to put certain people and certain data sets in the context and demand that certain technologies be applied. It was never about shutting down any facility. It was about controlling the pollution and the emissions.
One regulation I will point out is a regulation focused on the petrochemical industry. There is a community in Louisiana, in one of the parishes, where we reduced the risk of elevated cancer by over 96% with one regulation. That regulation really brought into focus how we had been missing the mark for so many years.
The EPA Retreat
Jigar: When you think about what this new administration, the press and the narrative that's coming out of it around the endangerment finding, the coal plant work — give me some more information on what they're doing on the enforcement side of things, because I don't see that in the press. I don't feel like that's part of the narrative. I don't feel like folks are talking about it. Are they rolling back enforcement? Are they rolling back some of the good work that's done on clean air and clean water?
Michael Regan: Absolutely. We are seeing a retreat from the leadership position that EPA should play. The endangerment finding argument, really, from this administration isn't about the science. They are stipulating that it's out of EPA's jurisdiction to control pollution that impacts public health. That's mind-blowing. We're not even talking about an attack on the science per se. We're talking about an attack on the agency's mission. So yes, we are seeing a retreat in regulatory oversight, and we're absolutely seeing a retreat in enforcement of the laws that are on the books that are supposed to protect the least amongst us. It's very troubling.
Most people will think that what we did was political, but whether you were in McDowell County, West Virginia — a very red county, majority white population — or Lowndes County, Alabama, they were facing the same issues. When we have this retreat like we're seeing now, I can assure you it is just as much, if not more, impactful to red counties as it is to blue counties. You really can't put borders around pollution and public health protection. I don't think we should pretend that you can.
Jigar: Some people do care about the health and safety of their family.
Michael Regan: Absolutely.
Nico: A lot of what you fought for is getting rolled back right before your eyes. What do you think is really gone that we might not get back? What can we salvage? And more importantly, what can justice communities do to have a voice at this?
Michael Regan: I think we have to remain optimistic. Under the Biden administration, not only did we build trust with communities that we never had before through grants and through connectivity, we built infrastructure that never existed before. Yes, that infrastructure, that connectivity, that leadership is paused for now. But there's a foundation there that will be poised for the next opportunity.
I do believe that we've lost a lot of time. I do believe that a lot of people will get hurt. I do believe we've lost a lot of talent. But regulations, as you both know, are not something you turn on and turn off. You have to go through a process. I think we need to be prepared to litigate the process by which these regulations are unlawfully being terminated. I think we really need to litigate the lack of equal protection under the law for all people all across this country. I don't see the American people being protected adequately with the assault that we're seeing on certain regulations and certain policies.
Data Centers and Community Engagement
Jigar: I do think it's blowing back on the administration now. It feels like part of what you're saying is that there is a sort of business-as-usual approach that they're trying to go back to. I think that that's also hurting them on the data center side. When you look at the ratepayer protection pledge, part of that is, well, you can meet the pledge by building new coal plants or new natural gas plants to support these new data centers, but you can also do it through deployment of batteries, deployment of resiliency technologies, deployment of energy efficiency, weatherization in people's homes.
Part of what you did as Administrator was to try to facilitate a different type of conversation — one where you could get a win-win on two or three different fronts just by spending a little more time listening and a little less time talking. That approach seems relevant in this moment where Duke is trying to raise rates 15% in the state of North Carolina because they want to use business-as-usual techniques and they don't want to lean into battery storage or other technologies. Tell me a little more about the process and what we learned about the process of being more inclusive, and whether that really gets you to a better outcome.
Michael Regan: It absolutely gets you to a better outcome. Washington D.C., and sometimes Raleigh, seems to think that communities are anti-growth or anti-business. That is absolutely a myth. Folks want jobs. They want a strong tax base so that they can have good schools and opportunities to go to a museum or see a symphony. They want to see growth. They just want to see growth that is not disrespectful to them and their culture.
Through conversation, I found it's the easiest path to make the process more efficient. Yes, you have to tweak your plans here and there, but at the end of the day, you can get the project done. As we're seeing with data centers, I believe that this country is approaching this topic haphazardly. The constituency is too educated to stand by and not understand how to stop things.
Jigar: Did you know that the latest poll numbers actually show that data centers are more hated than ICE? You have to really screw up the narrative and communication to be polling that low. Keep going, sorry.
Michael Regan: Anytime you try to shove anything down anybody's throat, they're resistant. You have to acknowledge the potential negative aspects of any construction project, whether that be a data center, a natural gas combined-cycle project, or a solar project. A construction site is a construction site in the eyes of someone who owns property. But when you go in and have a conversation about how it will be done, take in some ideas, see if you can tweak them, I guarantee you most communities will see a path forward that we all could work with.
This administration, time and time again, is fumbling that ball. People's voices matter. As it relates to data centers, we're not even getting to the communities talking about the negative environmental impacts potentially. People have educated themselves on rates and affordability, and they are protesting these facilities based on an antiquated system that we have in place to create and generate electricity in this country, especially here in North Carolina. I think Duke is learning a big lesson, and they should.
Bipartisan Bridges
Nico: Administrator Regan, thank you for all the insight into what it takes to really hold in high regard the public health of all our communities. North Carolina — and, I'm sure, a lot of the country — is seen as a very red state, but in fact it's a very purple state. There's a lot of need for bipartisan action. You've spent your whole career learning to navigate and in some ways straddle that divide on behalf of clean air and clean water. What have you learned that, as an industry — from energy to AI — and as communities, we can carry forward to help break through what has been a very partisan battle, to elevate these topics in the public narrative as something that is good for the general good rather than using them as the whipping post for political gain?
Michael Regan: When Governor Cooper nominated me for Secretary, there was a Republican supermajority in the North Carolina General Assembly, and I got a unanimous confirmation. Senator Richard Burr and Senator Thom Tillis introduced me to the Senate when I was nominated for EPA Administrator for President Biden. I got more than 60 votes from the United States Senate.
I've always understood that Republicans and Democrats are people, and most people want similar things. I believe that in our conversations, we have to talk about the benefits of what we're doing to all sides. When I think about clean energy, I think about national security just as much as I think about global competition, just as much as I think about public health and protecting communities. We want a competitive America. We want an America that works for everyone. We all know that with the best technologies tied to our markets, tied to American ingenuity, we can outrun anyone in the world. We can do that without sacrificing our communities.
When we talk to Democrats and Republicans, and we talk about energy and infrastructure, I think we have to talk about the fragility of our energy grid, our water infrastructure, and what that does to us as a nation. Then we have to think about what the solutions are. If you look at the cost-effective solutions, the most efficient solutions, the solutions that are winning the day around the world, they're the solutions that just happen to fall into our category of being called clean. You can have that as a lead headline for climate. You can have it as a lead headline for communities, or you can have it as a lead headline for global competitiveness. I believe it's all three.
Jigar: Well, thank you for being here. Your moral clarity is truly inspiring. Such a pleasure to have you.
Michael Regan: Thank you.
Nico: Thanks, Michael.